Isaac Getz: What Makes Progressive Organisations So Successful?

 Henry Stewart: Next, we have Isaac Getz. Isaac Getz was the author of Freedom, Inc. way back in 2009, which has been translated into 15 languages. Since then, hundreds of companies and institutions have transformed their command and control organisations into freedom and responsibility based ones. He was very much at the forefront of self managed organisations, and he currently holds the post of professor at ESCP Business School.

So, Isaac, are you there? 

Isaac Getz: It seems so.

Henry Stewart: Okay, over to you. 

Isaac Getz: I'm trying to practice some British humour. So, what I'm speaking, I'm speaking from France. So, I'll begin with a joke. An American diplomat says to a French diplomat, you know, we have invented this new approach and it's really great. It works in practice. Yes, says the French diplomat, but does it work in theory?

Now, why did I tell you this joke? Because as academics, we always look for a theory, a model. I have personal research over the last 20, more than 20, years. In fact, over 300 companies and organisations and seeking this ideal organisational model, which liberates their people's initiative and potential. The bad news is, I couldn't find a theory.

And, you know, for someone coming from France, that hurts really, right?  But the good news. What I did find a lot of practice that works a lot of real companies that have really transformed themselves and have truly liberated their people's initiative and potential and they call them liberated companies.

You can find an article in Wikipedia, “liberated company”. All of these companies did it in different ways. But they all began their transformation with one common step, which is easy to say and very hard to do. So corporate liberation, we call it corporate liberation, can only begin when the chief executive lets go of her ego, can be him too.

And what does this mean?  Let me share two cases from many, many leaders whom I have studied. And who have successfully transformed their companies. Here is the first one. Bob Davids, the CEO of the Radica Games, the world leading electronic toy manufacturer at that time, traded on the New York Stock Exchange.

And he was building its new factory in China. And one rainy day, Bob Davids walked by an open ditch where the sewer pipe was being laid. With no slope, I don't know how much, you know, in building, but with no slope, nothing flows. Right? So, the sewage wouldn't flow, and David took off his shoes, jumped into the mud and laid two sections of pipe demonstrating the Chinese workers how to slope it.

He then watched them correctly lay two more sections, and then he left. The Chinese managers, they were shocked. They have never seen a CEO jumping in mud together with, with workers, right?  But that episode quickly spread throughout the whole company and turned Davids into a leader his Chinese employees trusted.

My message is not the chief executive, obviously, have got their feet muddy. My message is this. Next slide, please. Leadership is not a position assigned by your superiors, but a role granted by your people when they choose to follow it. Why is it important?  Here's a story I love from a leading European auto parts and the first French liberated company that's called Favi that I'm studying and studied since 2005.

And that story happened in the 1980s, several years after they started their liberation. One late evening, Christine, she was a cleaning lady, she was cleaning her chief executive's office when the phone rang. It was around 8 p. m. The cleaner picked it up. The caller apologized for not warning about the late arrival, that there were no mobile phones, you know, and said that Favi's chief executive, was due to pick him up in the airport. And since there was nobody around, what [did] Christine [do]?  She took the keys to one of the company's cars, drove to the airport, Charles de Gaulle, you know, in France, and brought the visitor to his hotel about, I don't know, maybe, One and a half hour, two hours’ drive from the from the airport, and she then came back late at night and finished her cleaning.

She didn't tell anyone. She did what she thought is right. And it's great. She did. The visitor was a quality auditor from Fiat, an Italian guy, and he was so impressed that he raised Favi's rating by 10%. I have a question for those of you who work in companies. Wouldn't you love to have people like Christine in your company?

But of course, in most companies, a night cleaner would not answer a call to the boss, have the keys to company cars. available to her or dare to leave without permission. In Favi, the boss is not the CEO. Push the button again, please. But the one facing a challenge, like Christine, the night cleaner. Christine surpassed herself, obviously, but she wasn't thanked for it.

Taking great initiatives is expected in Favi, yet in most companies, the excessive ego of some, not only of CEO, but also other executives, other managers, prevents the self-surpassing of all. Therefore, it's for the CEO to start letting go of her ego if she seeks to unlock her people's potential.

This worked with Favi, which operates as a liberated company. I told you since 1983 and some companies like W. Gore. Most of you probably heard about it next slide. Please. The manufacturer of Gore-Tex and some companies, for example, like Quad Graphics, the world's 2nd largest printing company, in the United States, in Milwaukee and have been liberated for even longer, so no liberated companies are not a fact.

Sometimes in France, at least, it's considered to be a fact. It's not a fact that will be replaced by something new. It's perhaps the longest living organisational forum and business philosophy in boarding McGregor’s theory.

Why? You probably all heard about McGregor's theory. Why?  And liberating companies are not anarchists either. As Lord John Acton, now I'm coming home to Great Britain, said, there are lords only in Great Britain, right? You agree with me, right? So, as Lord John Acton said already in the 19th century, next slide please, liberty is not the power of doing what we like, but the right of being able to do what we ought, just like Christine did in Favi.

And the question is, can any company be liberated? Can you, next slide please?  This is the question. And in fact, it's the wrong question. The right question is whether any company's leader can let go of her ego and become a liberating leader. I have personally never seen a successful corporate liberation without the leader's personal transformation.

True, some CEOs I've studied didn't need to transform themselves. They didn't have an ego. They had maybe something like we'd call healthy ego, but not the inflated ego to begin with. Most CEOs. My experience though, they needed several months of executive coaching, and a few needed a shrink and it helped them a lot.

You say "shrink "in UK or you say psychoanalyst?  Psychoanalyst. I think psycho. Okay, so psychoanalyst. Okay. They needed a psychoanalyst. Once the leader transformed herself, she will naturally treat her people as adults. Next slide please. In Latin, infant means a child not having the ability to speak.

That's the meaning of infant in Latin. Because the bosses believe they are the most intelligent people in the organisation. That's where ego is, right? They never ask for the employee’s ideas.

Thus, infantilising them, treat your employees like the adults they are. Give them the freedom they crave. Only then, together with your people, you will be able to co-create a new version of your company where people go because they want to, not because they have to and where instead of doing their 9 to 5 thing, they do their absolute best to realise their dreams.

Your company's vision, and I'm finishing, I know that Henry gave me only nine minutes. So, here's my message, right? Henry nine minutes?

Henry Stewart: Yeah. Yeah.

Isaac Getz: So, here's my message. Next slide please. The true measure of leadership is in its redundancy. So, next slide, lose your ego and gain next slide engaged people. And that would lead to a thriving business and eventually make the world a better place. It's a very simple theory. In fact, I did find the theory. It's very simple, but it works in practice time and time again. I've seen it with my own eyes. And after all, that is the true test of any theory, right? How we say it in English, the [proof] of a pudding is in the eating. Do you say that? 

Henry Stewart: Yep!

Isaac Getz: So that's the same for a theory. And if I come back to my diplomats, remember I opened with diplomats, right? So the French diplomat may be surprised to see so many liberated thriving companies in France. Next slide, please. She would then promptly explain that it's normal for the country to build on the theory.

You know, we have a theory. 'liberté, egalité, fraternité’ It’s a theory. You know, that's right. To which the American counterpart would react. If it works there, it can work anywhere. And it does next slide please. Thank you. Now. This is the world map, right? You see it. These companies are everywhere. It's not my map. It's a wiki map. It's the people who work in this company that puts put their companies on this map.

And I have a question to you because Henry said, ask them a question. Other way, they will sleep. Right? Right. Henry. Yes. Okay. So here's the question to wake you up. So that's the question. Next slide, please.

Who within the company do you think is best positioned to solve? The problems they encounter. That's the question. Very simple question. 

Henry Stewart: Okay, folks, any questions for Isaac, either in the chat or in Slido or in the live live session. Let's have some from the live session. Who's got some questions? 

 Emma: I was just saying that one of the pushbacks I get when we ask people to solve their problems is that junior colleagues will get really frustrated that they're bringing problems to a more senior colleague who then asked them to try and solve their own problem, which I get why we want to do that because we want to empower them to feel like they can solve their problems.

But how do we approach it in a way that doesn't really frustrate our junior colleagues and make them feel like we're asking them to do what they perceive to be our jobs. 

Isaac Getz: Yeah, you asked me this question. Yeah, I would say, I would say that the trust that you take a little bit of time, you'll find the answer that that's what typical leaders do.

Right? But since, since you expect me to, to, to, to give you the answer, it's from my observations, that's observed about 100 liberated companies right now. It's a situation with, I'd say, the minority of people who are really infantilised and they're extremely surprised, extremely surprised when they're asked, what do they think?

And they're told by their leaders, like former managers. That I trust that you, you know, take a little bit of time, you find a solution and the guy answers, you're paid two times more. I'm not paid to think you're paid to think right? And all kinds of just like that. So, what do you do with these people?

Obviously, it's a psychological issue. You can't push this thing. Right? So you acknowledge that thing and it's okay. If you feel that way. Okay, please, you know, continue as you continue and probably you expect, you know me or some other manager to provide the solution and, and you give it right. You, you can't at that moment pressurise these people because they become stressed and so on.

But later on, that's the job of the manager. The job of the manager that becomes a leader is one in these organisations. Is really one is to remove the things that block people  from taking responsibility and assuming the freedom that is given to them,  and that's not easy. So, he has to do his own little psychological investigation, diagnosis and so on and so that maybe this person. 

I don't know it. Maybe he was punished several times in the company by taking initiatives and they didn't work. So, this guy doesn't believe anymore. He's afraid. Maybe this person is underpaid. Maybe this person has too much work. Right? And he said, why should I take initiatives? You know, it's I'm already crumbling.

I'm on the level of big burnout. And now this guy asked me to take an issue. So, there may be different reasons. If you don't understand what is ‘the what’, don't make the diagnosis. You can't bring really a solution or propose something in terms of the acting right and in creating the environment. So, it takes time.

You the most important thing maybe to finish is that there are not good people and bad people in the company. This is one of the biggest mistakes that they've seen. You are participating in this transformation liberation. You're a good guy. And you are resisting. You're a bad guy. This is very, very big mistake.

Typical mistake of the understandable, very enthusiastic people that discover this, this mode of functioning because they're so enthusiastic and say, why don't you, you know, accept it? Why don't you apply? You know, we're changing the world. We're bringing the happiest. Place in the universe, and you are like, you are like sour, right, like you're not applauding, you're not happy, and you start to segregate the company.

Never, everyone, if he's doing his job, he's not stealing, he's not destroying the company, not burning down the plants, they are as good as others. And you acknowledge and respect that some people have more difficulty to leave this infantilized execution, right, oriented position, the comfort zone, in fact, because it's very comfortable, right?

Tell me what to do and I'll do it, into assuming responsibility and becoming an adult. But those of us who have children or have had teenage children, it takes time, right? For them, assuming the responsibility, it becomes, become autonomous. Adults. So you need a lot of understanding. No, no guilty complex, right? And no manipulation. And then some people may never come to that, but they are the minority. Let's say 10, 15%. It's okay. They're doing their job. Okay. They're not very enthusiastic. They're not very energetic. They're not thinking initiative, but you can advance with an organisation where among the I say we're finishing, right?

The boat of six. It's eight people, you know, the rowing boat, Cambridge Oxford, you see the competition. If you see six guys, they're rowing very enthusiastically and two guys, they're doing just correct nine to five jobs. You can still win races, but it's only two guys are rowing energetically. That's Gallup. That's employee engagement level, right? One guy even out of eight. And there are two rowing backwards. Your boat is moving backwards. And that's what the average company's engagement and performance is. That's where we are today.

Henry Stewart: Okay, over, over to Michelle, over to Michelle. 

Michelle: So, my question was to throw the one back to you, you asked us. So who in the company is in the best position to solve the problem I encountered. I'm asking your question back here. 

Isaac Getz: We had this discussion in the breakout room, and in fact, I got the real good answers. In fact, front line people. Why?

Because these people have most of the information pertinent to the problem. And the real issue is, that's why I ask this question. And it's like several. Several strata, right? So that's the first stratum. But the second stratum is if they are the best positions positioned and they have the most of the information and probably in many cases, they have the solutions to the problems they encounter.

Can they act in most of the companies on their solutions and put them in place? And the answer is that Dave gave me the answer is no, they don't have the right. They have to ask for permission because they have their boss and boss have his boss and so on and so on. And this is. The problem of the, I don't have anything traditional organisations in principle.

I just think that this organisation stifle people and as a consequence results. And the key is there, the people I compare that the company is full of diamonds and rough. But they stay diamonds in the rough because they cannot act. They're intelligent people. They know the solutions, but they just sit there and can't do anything because they have to ask the permission for boss because they have need to these three signatures and things like that.

And then they give up and from engaged. In two weeks or two months, they become disengaged. That's how the disengaged group, Gallup survey, right, becomes extremely inflated. But it's not like that when you hire people. No company hires disengaged people, actively disengaged people. The company produces, it's a machine to produce disengagement.

Perpetuum mobile, you know this term, right?  They regularly produce disengaged and actively disengaged people. So that's a long answer to a short, and so that's, you know, we're in France, we like to speak long, you know. 

Henry Stewart: Thank you. Okay, any more from the, from the audience from the live audience, Maureen?

Maureen Egbe: We're good here, Henry. We're good here. Okay. Well, thank you very much, Isaac. Thank you very much for that. That was a great, great presentation.

Isaac Getz: Thank you. Henry, do you expect me to do it again or not?  No. No, because you told me two times. No, it's just, just the once. Just once. Okay, I understood that if they applauded more, you would call me to do one more.

It's like, you know, on the stage, right? We've got talent. But they didn't applaud a lot, right? So, you're not asking me to do it again, the same song, right? That's, that's the idea. Absolutely not. I didn't expect anything else from British people, you know, coming from France. Okay, I'm, I'm, I'm joking, of course, I'm poking a lot of fun at you, but have a very good day.

And who knows, maybe some other occasion. We meet a lot of times when Henry sometimes in Korea, you know, Henry flies in on a helicopter flies back to it.